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« "M.F.A. is the new M.B.A." (Dean) | Main | Vestments: The Voice of the Vatican? »

April 22, 2008

Comments

A thoughtful review. The story of the Romas is very sensitively captured in Hedina's poetry. What after all is Dukh/sorrow? Philosophically considered it is milestone that one must pass. Sukrita's own comments (above) and her poetry, with which I am familiar, asks similar profound questions.

the dukh of all marginalised dwell in silences; thus if a voice comes thru it touches our beings

Who should I address this to? The poet or the reviewer. It must be a very fascinating book that Sukrita has reviewed so well. Already waiting to look around for the book.
Cheers, Sukrita.

gulzar

If the moderator will permit, I would like to point out that some excerpted poems from the book are available online:

http://www.magoriabooks.com/excerpts/dukh_pain/

It might be of special interest to Indian readers that the website contains a transliteration of the Romani poems into the Devanagari script.

Warmest Regards,

The Publisher

Ps.: I would be most grateful if the previous commenter could contact us through our website.

I am pleasantly impressed to see Sukrita's review bringing the specific issues behind the word dukh, the conditions accompanying the diasporic life, be they the relations with the majority not very keen to accept the multiculturalism, the challenges raised by staying true to the personal identity amid a different cultural worldview or the constant necessity of surpassing the local "gypsy" imagery.

Reminding me of a song of Naarghita (Romani singer), Duniya kya jaane, what knows the world about our dukh, who cares about our desire to cherish what is dear to us? After emigration, we kept lively our culture, we felt we have reasons to remain us, but this also kept us as a lonely people. However,the modern possibilities of communication gradually change this situation, according as the Romani-Indian cultural relations are developing and the information flows in both directions. For us, this change would mean a broad space where we could promote our culture beyond the current Gypsy caricature. Right now, in India there is not yet much knowledge about Roma, the lady from this Sahara report, being a bit puzzled that there are singers in Hindi (it's about Naliny) from a Western country like Romania (as a side note, Roma and Romania are false cognates, they are different words, the name of Romania comes from the Italian city of Rome).

In the perspective of positive developments, the Romani worldview will enrich the Indian culture. The cultivation of the Romanipen (Romani worldview) is bound to produce some prestigious and efficient public expressions (very necessary for relating to the rest of the world as a non-territorial minority). Also, in the perspective of an increased Indian presence worldwide, we have an intimate knowledge and understanding of an important part of the world, which may foster inter-cultural communication. In a millennium of living in diaspora, we always had a non-violent approach in relations with the local people, always promoting the mutual respect. In the perspective of a normalization of the relations between the Roma and the local non-Roma, with the help of the public presence of the Romani culture, this knowledge would be beneficent for both Indians and non-Indians, a lively expression of the millenary non-violent Indian relations with the rest of the world.

Thank you Alin for your comments as an insider. Your point about the Roma serving as a cultural bridge between the Indians and the alien local cultural contexts in different countries is pertinent. Provided of course, that there's adequate contact/dialogue between the Indians and the Roma.The stereotyping and caricaturing have got to be exorcised through the dissemination of authentic knowledge about the Roma and I believe literature can be one strong means of doing so. More translations, more sensitive engagement with each other.

On another note, what with the threat of complete homogenization of cultures in the present day world, there are lessons to learn from the Roma about how mobility does not at all mean a discarding of one's own specific identity...
-Sukrita

Indeed, every moment is a choice between one way or another for a non-territorial minority totally involved in the non-Romani economy, employing in the communication with the non-Roma the local non-Romani mental frameworks in order to make possible some mutual understanding. In this sense, I wonder what are the opinions about the Romani people or the experiences with the Romani culture of the readers of this review.


I indicated to Mr. Hönsch in an e-mail message that for some reason I found it easier to read the Romani version of the poems in Devnagari script rather than the Latin/English text. Mr. Hönsch wanted to know if that was due to improved phonetics or enhanced comprehension. Although my "total comprehension" was not significantly affected by Devnagari, I said this to Mr. Hönsch:

A bit of both I think. The text just seems more "natural" to me in Devnagari. But that may just be my own bias.

I wonder what that bias is. Although Romani is definitely an Indo-European language, am I also unconsciously according it the status of an "Indian" language rather than a European/ Indian one with a common root in Sanskrit/ Hindi?

I also wanted to know how familiar the European Roma are with the Devnagari script. Mr. Hönsch thinks "not much" and that Alin might know. Alin, any thoughts?

Well, Romani is an Indo-Aryan language (at the Bucharest University it is studied in the same cluster together with other Indo-Aryan languages) spoken on every continent, it's European, Asian, American, African, Australian... (for example, the author whose book is reviewed here does not live in Europe).

Regarding the familiarity with Devnagari, here the main issue is that there is not yet a public expression of the Romani culture. At a popular level it is a strong desire to keep the culture, while, concerning the relations with the local majorities, it did not appear yet a clear framework for a feasible multiculturalism. Hence not just the knowledge of Devnagari, but of everything that would concern the official side of the Romani culture did not find yet a popular expression. The only direct opportunity for the emerging Romani intelligentsia to have a social success is to assume the local non-Romani perspective and interpret the Romani worldview with it (otherwise it remains available the meandering choice of being an autodidact). Then, its proposed measures for a public expression and representation are not assumed among the common Romani folk, ultimately being felt as a more or less veiled path towards assimilation.

In Romania, the country with the highest Romani population (2-3 million from 21 million entire population), as a result of this state of affairs, there is not even a single Romani high school. This, when even a small Bulgarian minority with several thousand people have at least one high school. The classes of Romani language at Bucharest University are just few years old and involve yet few people. Here, indeed, it is studied Devnagari, but it does not exist an official policy of supporting it. At this moment serious writings of Romani with this script are rather personal endeavors.

Regarding the opinions concerning the use of script, they are usually the same as those about the expression of other cultural aspects of the Romani worldview. They involve considerations like "aren't we too conspicuous?" vs. "we should not compromise on issues concerning the Romani culture" (as a result of centuries-old persecutions), the imagery of India (I wrote more here about this important issue) and, of course, political considerations. In Europe, the authorities of the European Union mostly perceive the Roma as a social problem that should be solved somehow, they did not show signs of accepting the existence of the Romani worldview. After the Southeastern European countries (where most of the Roma live) entered in EU, these authorities gave recommendations to the new members to do something for decreasing the birth rate among Roma. This while they have programs aiming at increasing the birth rate of the others. Also in the recent conflict in Kosovo, some sided with the Albanians, some with the Serbs, for both sides it mattered a lot that they had support. However, nobody supported the Roma, hence there was no justice for those killed or tortured and most of the pre-war 100,000 Kosovar Roma are now scattered worldwide.

As for the feasibility, Devnagari is obviously the most suited, having available letters for all the Indo-Aryan specific sounds, plus for sounds that in Latin would have more variants available (because they did not have a specific letter in the time of the Romans).

Thanks Alin, for the detailed response. The plight of any minority that wishes to co-exist harmoniously and yet retain a distinct identity within a larger culture is always problematic. European Jews faced the same dilemma (and danger). In fact the Hindi songs by Nalini and Naarghita may do more to bridge the inter-cultural gap with the non-Roma than university linguistics program can accomplish.

My question was a bit more specific and you have answered it in the last paragraph of your comment - that Romani words retain sounds which are best represented by the Devnagri script. Which is why I found it "natural." When I alluded to the identification of Romani as an "Indian" language, that is what I meant. English and German too are Indo-Aryan but they have lost some of the phonetic similarities with Sanskrit and other north Indian languages. But Romani seems to still preserve them.

Just curious. Are you the same person as "Desiphral" who commented on my original profile of Dukh-Pain? You seem to know a lot about India.

Following up on your discussion about the suitability of the use of Devnagari script for Romani language, a question that comes to my mind, especially from the point of view of the phonetics of the language, is whether the Persian script may even be better for Romani. I'd like to know whether such sounds as "z" as in the English word "buzz", "kh" as in "Khalid", are part of the phonetics of Romani. If so, then the Devnagari script would not really be as much a match for Romani as the Persian script, though Devnagari too has created space for these sounds in the recent past, through modifying some of its consonents.

Alin, I wish to compliment you on your exhaustive and thoughtful essay highlighting the problematics of Roma cultural identity and its link with Bharat/India/South Asia, each with distinctive cultural and historical connotations. Indeed there is one reality but many perspectives! Thanks for providing the link.

I see... I guess, Ruchira, that by "Indian" and Indo-Aryan we are talking about the same thing. Personally, I did not mean English or German when I said Indo-Aryan, but the specific family of Indo-Aryan languages. In Europe, the word Aryan was forgotten long time ago (except Eire, the Irish name of Ireland). There was a kind of "Aryan revival" in the 19th century, after the Europeans discovered the name in South Asia, but it was directed towards something else that its usual meaning. The emphasis on blond hair and blue eyes, for example, has nothing in common with the notion of Aryan. These physical features belong rather to the pre-Indo-European populations. If it would be considered a "rigorous" revival, the Italians with dark complexion would be as Aryan as the blond Scandinavians. Anyway, after WW2, the notion of "European Aryan" was mostly associated with extreme right and not considered anynmore in academic contexts.

Hence, at University of Bucharest, Indo-Aryan languages mean only Romani, Hindi, Bengali... Romani is recognized everywhere as an Indo-Aryan language. And, yes, Romani has Indo-Aryan specific sounds, the aspirated phonemes (and only occasionally retroflexes), phonemes that have separate letters in scripts from the Brahmi family, like Devnagari.

Regarding the Persian script, it poses similar issues like the Latin one. Indeed, Romani, the same as the other modern Indo-Aryan languages, has the sounds z, khh, in Devnagari noted by adding nukta to a letter with a close sound. But the Persian script does not have "original" letters for these phonemes, khh (ﺥ) being written by adding a diacritic to h (ﺡ). This, while for z there are more variants available, by adding the diacritic to various "original" letters (ﺫ, ﺯ, ﺽ, ﻅ). A similar problem as in the Latin alphabet, where it is not a clear consensus over how to write phonemes that did not have a letter when the alphabet was invented. For example, च from Devnagari may be written as c; ch; cs; ć; č, a situation that leads to confusions in reading (especially for a transnational people like Roma, which tend to use the local habits of writing to put Romani texts on paper). For example ch is pronounced as च in Spanish, as श in French, as ख़ in German (letters that have a clear phonemic correspondence in Devnagari). Plus, both Latin and Persian scripts do not have letters for the Indo-Aryan aspirated and retroflex phonemes. In Latin, usually an aspirated in noted by adding an h and a retroflex by adding a dot below. In Persian an aspirated in noted by adding do cashmī he (ھ), while a retroflex by adding the diacritic ط above the letter.

Thanks Sukrita for your kind words about my essay. Currently I'm looking about making it available for the large Indian public. I hope it may rise the awareness about the Roma and the Romani culture (including the book reviewed here).

Ah, and yes I am the same as Desiphral that commented few months ago in the other review :)

Just a suggestion, Alin, maybe you could send your article to "Indian Literature", a journal published by the Academy of Letters here (Sahitya Akademi), located in Delhi. Or, for a wider circulation, to the paper "The Hindu". They might take it for their literary supplement. I too feel that there must be a greater dissemination of awareness about the "reality" of the Roma and their cultural proximity to India despite the differences. And this cannot be confused with the diasporic identity of other "Indians" living abroad.There's a lot of interest and work going on "diasporic literature" here in India but there is a gross ignorance about the Roma ...

Thank you Sukrita for the suggestions, they are helpful. I may have some knowledge about the contemporary Indian society, but this does not include yet too much about the possibilities of publishing. Hopefully they will determine positive developments...

The book entitled Dukh / Pain is truly reflective of the tale of a people who have suffered the most and probably only second to the Jews who experienced heart rending pains during the War periods. Even todau the rascist minds are alive and they look down upon the Roms and few more people as the wild creatures having nothing human.
In such a scenario it is but highly moving to have a volume of poetry from Hadina who nicely poises the two a crying flower against the aggrieved Roma.
Take her lines " a flower is crying/ along with the Roma. The poetry review by Sukrita isnice but I can write little about it until get the book in my hands....

Harish Thakur

Its fascinating to read the ongoing discussions brought about by the Dukh-Pain syndrome which is both philosophical and linguistic. Perhaps one can note the universality of suffering and the various cultural tropes that allow for its articulation. On the whole, cultural permission to show/demonstrate pain is more readily available in India than in the West. Hence the Romani poetry is a sort of cultural niche which is outside the mainstream yet significant when we are thinking about cultural retrievals. Sukrita writes with sensitivity about the poetry and also the life meanings reposited in the form. Alin's indepth observations have added to my knowledge and I compliment Ruchira on her ability to bring in European contexts into this wonderful discussion. To my surprise I found today a DVD on the Romanis in Canada, in a library in Delhi!

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